[Mick Trainer]

OK there is some truth to what you say and I certainly do not think Pits are in any way the best dog for any real serious work but have little issue with pits being used in sport.

I'm assuming you've worked a pit before, Let me answer this first. Hundreds of them. I used to work at a training centre close to some of the most serious fighting dog breeders we had in Aust and thus we had a lot of Pits come down to be worked. At times we would be working 20+ a night 3-4 times a week.

how many have you seen snarling and growling on the sleeve? A sign of insecurity. Pits just can't handle stress in the way a GSD or Mal can. Really? My experience leads me totally in the other direction that most of the Pits I see do not simply see a human as a threat and thus lack the seriousness and civility to work in a real life scenario but are extremely prey orientated (enough that the few pits that we have had make it as serious working dogs it could be argued have viewed a person as prey and worked almost soely in this drive). I have found most pits are extemely secure on the bite and show little if any insecuirty and is one of the biggest reason why the breed is not often successful as a serious working dog. They simply feel no threat and thus will show no real aggression. However as a sport dog they show little issue on the sleeve infact most show great grip pressure, calmness and clarity.

Pits are dog and animal aggressive but not aggressive with humans despite the countless stories in the news. I totally agree with this but to understand the dog better you need to look further at their breeding pratices. They were indeed as you said bred for fighting other dogs and not for fighting people as was the case with the GSD, Mals and to some degree Rotts and thus their active aggression is tailored more towards this than it is towards humans. However in doing so Pit breeders bred for what is defined as "gameness" which is basically the ability to face its adversary in a calm, confident manor. This is for me what has created their confidence in not seeing the human, in this case the decoy, as a threat. I would say that not only can they handle the pressure of the GSD or Mal but that they can on large handle more. They simply lack other attributes on a whole that make other breed more successful at bite work orientated activities.

Further I find them to be very drivey. This I believe again is a factor of what they were bred from and like we see in the extremely strong GSD, Mals, Rotts etc in an active aggression existing on the other side of a pronouced prey drive we also see that such aggression within the Pit, however selected towards dogs. However both result in a very prey driven animal. I would say that in most cases that a well bred pit will have superior predatory strength than seen in all but the best Rotts and many even working bloodline GSD. I believe this as well as structure is one of the reasons we see more success in people breeding Pits into their hunting dogs than has ever been the case with GSD, Rotts or Mals. We have all worked enough dogs to know how desirable this drive is and again this points me towards them being quite suitable for such work.

Now I should add at this time that for this to be true that the Pit must come from what is for them "good stock" or as they would call it "game bred" stock which means in real terms that the dog is from fighting stock and this is a problem within itself. What has created the dog to be what it is, is an activity I detest and and I hope in the US as it is in Aust is reducing fast. However this causes a real problem for the breed. The activity that the dog was bred for and as a result created the temperament that I spoke about above is vanishing and thus what is being used to select for such gameness is also vanishing with it. This for me creates a real problem for what the breed will become in the future. Now as we are starting to see more and more Pits come from non game stock we are seeing a larger number of "Kerr" dogs coming up and this could indeed create the nerve problems you describe.

These dogs usually have no issues with biting and gnerally need very little bite training but just because a dog will bite a sleeve or a suit does not mean he is confident in his work. Umm this is a little contradictory. The fact that the dog needs little foundation work would usually indicate that he/she is confident in what he/she is doing and thus would indeed show confidence in the work. If the dog doesn't want to do it then you have bite problems. The fact that the dog seeks to bite would indicate enjoyment in what he/she is doing. They cannot have both enjoyment and insecurity. One removes the other. If a lack of need for foundation work is a prerequisite for not training a dog we are looking in the wrong direction.

The pits seem to be be purely offensive animals and lack balance by having a uneven defensive drive. Umm I don't understand this. An offensive animal is a dog not working in defence at all. Defence by it's nature is a "reactive behavior" as it is stimulated through threat and it's goal is to drive the threat away. Further I would say that the vast majority of Pits lack any real defensive ability especially were humans are concerned. As described above any defensive reaction within a fighting dog would mean that the dog was, lets say "not bred from". The same can be said for human aggression. These behavior would not be tolerated thus the dogs show very little of these behaviors.

Another issue with Pits in bite sports is the quick trigger and immediate rage/frenzy they seem to get set in. I am not sure as to what they are quick to trigger too but any way. They can indeed go into a frenzy type of mode and this is indeed an issue anyone looking to train one for sport needs to be careful of. Still Mals can do the same. The can get so wound up in drive that they thrash and pull and can lack what the judges would now call calmness. But in real terms the bite is full and hard, the dog can be comfortable with the bite, situation etc but is simply wound up. I am sure we have all seen the French Siege Mals in youtube? The dog that grabs the handler is simply so wound up he redirects. This is something a trainer must train around but I do not think many of us who really want a working dog would not like to have a dog with that much drive?

I've heard stories of pits taking .38 shots to the side and they still don't quit. Yeah in Uast we had a Rott shot in the head and it kept coming and bite a police officer. The reality is that it simply didn't hit anywhere that would stop the dog. Purely a fluck. Let me say that in the vast majority of cases if a dog was shot it isn't going any further, no matter the breed etc.

SchH requires control and for that sport it's better to have a thinking dog like a GSD, Mallie or Rott rather than a reactive dog like a Pit. Um I certainly think that these breeds on a whole are more directable and thus trainable than Pits but as I said above I don't really find them very reactive or Kerr.

When a bull breed like a pit gets locked on it's hard to get them to out Now that is so very, very true. Having a Pit that truly wants to bite cleanly "out" is a pain in the rear. Still if a helper is worth his Salt he should view this as a challenge and look at ways to get through it. However there is little doubt that anyone looking to sport train a Pit needs to consider a few challenges like this.

if they are such great dogs for biting sports why aren't there more of them out there doing schH or Ring Sports? Oh dont get me wrong, I am not for 1 second saying that they are fantasitc for such things and that for sport they would hold a candle to the GSD as an overall breed. However there is a large difference between saying that a GSD etc as a breed is superior in SchH than a Pit, to saying that they are not suitable implying that they should not be trained because of some other issue. In the end a Rott for me is not truly suited to SchH either and I think we sell our breed short by making this our working focus and if we are all looking to train only the best for SchH then we should all sell our Rotts and go and get GSD as they are clearly the superior animal for this activity. I doubt that you will ever see a Pit at the "worlds" but that shouldn't mean that if the handler and dog are having fun, that no harm is being done by training it that it still shouldn't be trained. There are tons of dogs doing SchH who really won't make it in any real level of the sport but are trained any way. Because a dog is a Pit doesn't mean it should be excluded from this.

In the end I wouldn't look for Pit if I was seeking a sport dog but I wouldn't not train one because it is a Pit. I think there are other breeds better suited for SchH but I do feel that they can do the sport with a push. I do not seek to own a Pit for a number of reasons but overall I think they can do an adequate job for sport.

Ninasmom wrote "I beg to differ; The Pits I see at the park enjoy playing with other dogs more than my Rottie does! One example doesn't make a rule. Whilst there are plenty of non dog friendly Rotts truly to get a Game bred pit not to be dog aggressive is a massive task and many pits unfortunatly suffer from high degrees of dog aggression. It is a left over from years of breeding for such. It is the same as why poor nerved Rotts are usually aggressive were poor nerved Greyhounds seek to go into avoidance and run. Rotts have a stronger defensive temperament.

IJF1 said "Confidence on the bite comes from correct foundation training." Well no, confidence on the bite should come from the genes. Foundation training is really only to cover up poor genetics. A truly good dog needs little or not foundation work. We have simply become good at fixing these problems that we now look at it this way but in real terms when SchH was a temperament test and we didn't have the techniques we have today we saw truly what the dogs genes were about. Now we see a product of training.

By the way, many people say the same thing about Rottweilers growling on the bite! Yes they do and they are right. Most Rotts now days lack the drive and nerve for a truly sound bite right off.

Mick.