[moondog]

The problem with using aversives for behaviors found undesirable is that the end result is you have disengaged your dog from YOU, which is the complete opposite of the ENGAGEMENT you want to establish between you and your dog. To have a true companion in your dog, you have to want your dog to want to "be with/learn from/look to" YOU for guidance in every day life. Dogs aren't fools....."spray me once, shame on me....spray me twice, shame on you. I'll find something else besides you to give my attention to, thanks." It's very subtle, but it is absolutely there when using unwarranted/unnecessary aversives in training.