[Skip]

Originally Posted by dipper

Hi Skip,
I think we have two different scenarios going here --probably my fault.
I believe we/I may be intermingling two separate things.
If you are standing on the field with your helper in front of you and training your dog, that is very different than your dog living with you and maybe 3 other family members.
Your dog still has to see you as the "boss" or "in charge" or "alpha" if you are to have good success in training---he must respect you or he will not obey you.
When your dog is living in a home with parents and children, the pack order does come into play.
Do you have to consider "pack" behavior while training? probably not to any great extent.
Should you consider it a mealtime with children in the house? definitely.
Interesting that you mentioned wolves, I used to sit and watch them for hours at times.
I used to live in PA and there was a gentleman that had about 15 or so of the last remaining Lobo Wolves---near Sheffield PA.
I learned a lot from watching these wolves and from speaking with the gentleman that owned them---the interaction of the wolves with themselves and with the owner was something to see.
I don't see how we can expect dogs to act or address us in any other way than what they have learned through thousands of years of evolution.
And yes, all dog species do grow up in packs, it's called a litter--they learn what they need to learn from the bitch and the interaction with their littermates and then they are driven out to be on their own for the survival of the species---some may live solitary adult lives but they darn sure started out as members of a pack.

Rich

I disagree...I don't think the "dog pack" scenario needs used in a home environment either. Actually, the home scenario is definitely VERY different than any "pack" ranking in the wild. If we use the pack analogy, there is only one "alpha" in a wild canine pack. Everybody else is subordinate. In a human home scenario, EVERYBODY (humans) (and you know I dislike using the word) should be "alpha" to the dog. One hundred and eighty degrees opposite and VERY CONTRARY to the ancient "pack". Also, no, ALL dog species do not grow up in packs just because they start off life with multiple siblings. Many wild male canines must leave the group at a young age, to start their own group (or to stay totally independent at times) so that inbreeding doesn't occur. A mother (human) teaches a child at a young age how to mingle and interact with others (many times at daycare), but I don't understand your point. Many living things grow up in the company of others, humans much longer than most, but they differ at some real basic levels. Can we learn a couple things about why a dog might act a certain way because of it's ancestors? SURE>>> but I'm not one of it's ancestors, and I will never be (or attempt to be) one... the dog has been domesticated to live in our world, not vice versa. I see a lot of people excuse a dog's lousy breeding and fear-biting as an inaccurate description of being "protective" like it's ancestors. Sometimes I see it used as an excuse to justify lack of training. Go ahead and (pretend and kid yourself in my opinion) keep thinking you are part of your dog's pack. When the dog evolves to walking on 2 legs, gets a job, and helps me pay the bills, then it can be part of MY pack.